I did not twist the word in any way, shape, or form.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

a: capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/viable

Synonyms: applicable, doable, feasible, operable, possible, practicable, usage, within possibility, workable

That being said, thank you Centrelink and Kaex for providing insights to later end-game methods that I haven't experienced. You make great points, which I do not disagree with, regarding shadow priest viability. I never, not once, said that a smite priest is superior to a shadow priest for raiding. Merely that it may be "viable" in that it might be "capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately." No doubt it scales poorly compared to other classes from a damage perspective, as does the shadow spec, but that does not mean it is incapable, though it is certainly not ideal on new challenge content.

If you want to get down to the dictionary definition of viable, then a naked talentless priest is viable for every encounter in the game.

Viable because every encounter in the game can be beaten with 24 people (yes, even Brutallus although it would be difficult).

However, nobody could argue that a naked talentless priest would be providing a useful contribution to the raid compared to any reasonably specced and equipped person.


If people want to bring a smite priest along to the raid so that one of their guild members can have fun then by all means go ahead. Just understand that, if there were alternatives available, it would be better to bring another dps class which could provide 500+ more dps to the raid.


And btw, I agree that once the raid has enough shadowpriests that all of the mana shortages have been fillled, further shadowpriests provide nothing more than substandard dps. That's why there is very little benefit for a raid to have more than 2 shadowpriests (and even the second is often surplus to requirements).

I didn't want to hit "quote" on anyone because these text blocks are getting on the ridiculous side. Ok, just to throw my two sense in here:

Imp Divine Spirit (and DS in general) is a subpar buff in comparison to all the others. For entry level healing (kara etc) it's decent for boosting +heals and mp5, and resto druids certainly like it - but once you get beyond gruuls you should be specing 5/5 Empowered Healing and CoH (aoe heals FTW, if you've never used it, use it in a 5man and then tell me it doesn't fill in our short comings nicely)

As for DPS well... I'm only geared with Kara, crafted, badge, and a piece of gear from hyjal - i have 1125 shadow dmg unbuffed and I read about the various rotations for dps. Ummm... I normally just use Mind Flay over and over again to increase my mana efficiency. I've tried a bunch of different rotations, but having to aggressively pot and not refunding as much mana otherwise I find to be unattractive - that and I'm paranoid about SW: Death lol

I'd like to point out that even though shadow spec = mana battery, this isn't always true. If we don't have time to get up our rotation, or at least our primary dot and start flaying pronto, we lose more than we stand to lose more than we gain. I no longer go out and quest/grind as shadow - when I'm lolsmite I have almost no downtime because of my large mana pool and decent regen - and the only mp5 gear I have in that form is the Signet of Ancient Magics lol.

Mathematically speaking, a holy/disc dps priest will do more dmg than a sp (provided they can stand relatively still (like the sp him/herself). With gear and full raid buffs you're looking at almost 2k smites every 2 seconds - and the crits for around 4k. Potting will be a big thing, but it's that way for a lot of dps casters.

And a Ret pally is NOT necessary for a disc/dps priest. Ret pallies are one of those things that don't really have a niche in a raid save for supporting a prot pally. But as for the "ideal" group for a disc/holy dps priest - Boomkin, Elemental Shammy, Shadow Priest, Disc/Holy Priest, Ret Pally or BM hunter (beastial wrath).

Oh, here are some sample specs for Disc/Holy DPS:

LOLSMITE:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

If you have the hit rating this works nicely - Darkmoon Card: Wrath ftw - fun fact, Rank 1 Holy Nova and 3 or more people around you = abuse of SoL - now I see why it shares the GCD and is only 50% on crit lol


Disc/Holy DPS:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

And this is for those of you out there how don't want to give up the spell dmg and/or crit in favor of hit rating.

FYI - most caster dps gear isn't rich in spirit, try not to fixate on that.

I don't really understand why people think that holy nova (1.5s GCD) + free smite (1.5s GCD) = good dps.

Even assuming you get a crit on every holy nova, it still has the effect of turning smite from a 2 second cast into a 3 second cast.

Yes I get that it is mana free dps, but you lose about 1/3 of your already less than stellar maximum dps by doing it.


Oh, and btw your maths in the previous post wasn't too great either. 2k smite every 2 seconds = 1k dps. And that would be pretty unspectacular. Fortunately lolsmite isn't that actually that bad.

And smite crit = 150%, so crits would be 3k not 4k.

This is me:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... s&n=Aetran

I'm still toying around with Improved Death/PI/Spirit Tap/healing talents, trying to find a good fit for those last few points.

Gruul/Mag run from last night:

http://wowwebstats.com/qnqpi15prczdk

(The 6k crit was from Mag when banished - normal is 3k-3.2k. There's 28 people in the chart because we switched some folks out when we headed to Mag. Clearly we are not in the T6 league, but we are progressing in SSC and TK - just got Hydross and Solarian down last week.)

In the HKM fight we lost a healer on our mage tank early and I subbed in. I also healed the Olm tank, which anyone can do, really, but which frees up a real healer to pay attention to someone who's actually getting hit.

SSC run from Sunday night:

http://wowwebstats.com/jrfzbmvetwq4a

(Morogrim hates us.)

That wasn't really math as much as it was an estimate, and I've never actually been fully raid buffed so I was wildly guessing lol. And as for the rank 1 holy nova/free smite thing - i should have been more specific - that's just FUN especially in like a bg or when you're out grinding lol

That's pretty close to the gear I have! Using Staff of Infinite Mysteries from Curator since I've got soulfrost on my nath mindblade and the orb of soul eater (saving my badges for gear upgrades >_> )

Oh, and as for your spec - drop the 4 in spirit tap - that's a grinding talent, go for power infusion - it will increase your dps/longevity in fights and you should take a pts from spiritual guidance and put it into Spirit of Redemption - 5% increase to total spirit is a beneficial to your imp divine spirit and the spiritual guidance buff

100% opinion below:

I spec'd smite tonight and tried this build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bxg0zhLtrxoZ0Et0bbV

My hasted smites were 1.8s. I didn't feel that the .3s seed enhancement from SoL was worth the loss of crit chance. Snap decision, no math, prove/disprove at will.

I sat at 141 +hit, 1288 +dmg, 186 haste.


My impressions over the night:

1.) Mana was a huge issue. Back to Mana potions instead of Destruction potions.
2.) DPS was disappointing. I couldn't even match the DPS I put out in shadow spec, even when playing "selfish" and PIing myself.

Now, is it viable?
For a progression based guild? No. You will never give the smite priest a shadowpriest or a ret paladin for their group. They need both to truly work in a raid setting.

For a casual guild? Sure. But then again, that's like saying a street-legal sportscar is viable in NASCAR. Yes, it can drive on the road, but that doesn't mean its going to win races.

Any interruption during your PI basically renders the additional damage useless - yes, for those few seconds you were doing higher dps, but overall damage stays the same. Plus, it's only two additional casts every three minutes, if you're lucky and aren't lagged or interrupted. It's not worth the four points it takes to get it. The old PI was much better.

Spirit Tap is hard to get off in a raid but it does happen, and when it does I get approximately 140-150 spell damage and 700+ mp5 for fifteen seconds. That's real damage that isn't wholly lost if I'm interrupted or have to move, and it applies to ALL my spells, not just Smite - a Hasted SW:P, SW:D, or Holy Nova is pretty much a wash in terms of additional damage. Any AoE fight you're almost guaranteed to get a Tap off if you time your Holy Nova correctly, and any fight with adds is also a high probability because my burst damage is high - I can often kill an add before someone else gets to it.

Improved Death (SoR) only adds 7-9 spell damage, and 6-8 mp5 (20 Spirit @ 400 Spirit, 25 @ 500, 35% of 20 is 7, 35% of 25 is 8.75 - mp5 is complex now with the Int bonus, so I won't figure it here). On the other hand, a point in Spiritual Guidance provides 5% of my Spirit to straight spell damage, or approximately 20-25 spell damage. If I add a point to Improved Death, it'll come from Spirit Tap, not from Spiritual Guidance. With Spirit Tap up Improved Death scales poorly versus Spiritual Guidance as well.

You have to gear for the mana regen - what was your Spirit and mp5? You can't simply switch using SP gear and expect it to work right.

Were you using Holy Fire as your opener and SW:P right after trinketing and again before the trinket died? Or was this straight Smite spam?

I guess I'm asking, do you have WWS link? :)

T6 Head, Shoulders, Chest, Gloves -- All +12s except head = +6 / +14
S3 Boots (Dreadweave)
PvP Cloak (Subjugated Power not the 12k honor one)
ZG Neck, Bracers of Nimble Thought, Waistwrap of Inifinity
Hammer of Judgement
Swapped between Akama's Offhand (forgot the name) and the haste badge offhand throughout the night.
RoaK, Mana Attuned band -- both +12'd
Leggings of the Channeled Elements -- 3x 12'd
Crusader + Hex Head trinkets

Basically best-in-slot T6 SP gear with PvP pieces where I had raw +shadow. I had 210 MP/5 while casting. The fights where I went OOM was Rage Winterchill / Anatheron, with Jainia invloved so I had double spirit (didn't record my MP/5 while casting in the aura -- too busy). That's about as biased toward adding extra regen to the spec as I could create for this test. I could not wrestle the other shadowpriest from the mage/lock group.

Consumables - Supreme Power + SD Food + Wizard Oil.

No WWS, sorry. We farmed Sunwell trash and then did the first 2 bosses of Hyjal to get a Paladin exalted, and to try and get a tanking staff for a druid. You'll have to take my word that I pulled in roughly 1300 dps on Rage, my best shadow on him was just over 1600.

No holy fire, quick math said it was less DPS than Smite (very well may be wrong). SW:P was used, as well as MB / SW:D. While playing on trash it seemed I did best with MB/SW:D in the rotation with Smite (may also be wrong). Ret pally in the raid, not in my group.

This was more done for fun, as we had a few tanks and healers gone so we just messed around last night. I didn't have time to properly test my rotation via simulationcraft, but I "eyeballed" (yes, I know, not always a good thing) the holy fire vs smite damage and decided Holy Fire was better D/M, but lower DPS. I attempted to crank out as much raw DPS as I could at the time.

I've always found Holy Fire crits, when they occur, to be quite excellent. But yeah, atm Disc/Holy is decidely not the "best" for raids (those seeking determined progression at any rate). Maybe after the Expan we'll see some changes! But if you need a dps and have a priest with no shadow gear who has dps gear - bringing them as disc/holy dps isn't a terrible idea imo

Yah, fully buffed mp5 should be twice that in T6-ish gear - I'm already at ~250ish with pally buff, etc. Pretty good gear though.



Holy Fire isn't as good as Smite for raw dps but the total damage is higher because of the dot + better coefficient. If you have the time to use it (just before the pull, if a tank is re-establishing aggro, etc) it provides a bit more damage.

I'm curious about the MB/SW:D, because I've always felt that it was not as good as Smite but also do not have math to back it up. I always figured that not getting the damage and crit bonuses on the MB/SW:D would take it out of the running, even with the faster casting speed (though I do use SW:D while moving). I'll try working it in and see how I do.



Thanks for the info - good data to know.