Someone in EU Priest forums wrote this:




can someone confirm this?

I dont see those buffs adding nearly 700 dps.

Let's look at them:

Shaman totem : 101
Flask : 85
Oil : 42
Food : 21
Hex shrunken head : 35
Imp spirit + BoK : 40 (say 400 spirit)

Total = 324 damage. Thats going to be about 165 dps. Gonna be generous and call it 186 dps to bring us up to 1500 dps.

Misery adds 5%, power infusion 1.7%, heroism 4% (assuming a 5 minute fight) and skull of gul'dan 1.85%

So we are up to 1500 * 1.05 * 1.017 * 1.04 * 1.0185 = 1,696 dps. Lets call it 1700 dps.

Now I haven't factored in drums but I'm pretty sure they dont add 300 dps.

And those unbuffed gear numbers are basically as good as a priest could get from sunwell, so 1700 is going to be the maximum possible.

All in all it's a bit meh given that the lolsmite priest provides nothing to the raid. We also haven't investigated whether the priest would actually have enough mana to keep this up.

Simply not true.

* A Smite priest can bring IDS to the raid for increased mana regen and caster DPS/healing while allowing an IDS-spec healing priests to respec for max healing.

* Smiters can heal themselves, spot-heal others when needed, or switch back and forth mid-fight to full healing without penalty - something that shadow priests can do with less effectiveness (no Imp Renew, holy spell crit, etc) and less efficiency changing roles (>800 mana and a GCD to revert to shadowform).

* A smiter is the only PVE spec you'll see with a 0.5 second mass dispel (definitely handy on Zul'jin - haven't been in MH/BT content yet to know it's utility there).

Do these benefits outweigh those brought by having shadowpriests in raid? No. Of course not. The benefits of Misery and SW are enormous for all caster DPS, especially locks. But what happens when you already have a few shadowpriests that are keeping these debuffs up, and the 3rd shadowpriest's VT becomes an issue of 'well... I guess these roles could use more mana so I'll put them in that group'? At that point, there are two options I see: Replace the shadowpriest with a more pure dps class (mage/lock/rogue/etc) or bring on the smite priest for more raid-role flexibility.

In 10-man content this could really smooth things out, as there are often times where you need more healers and times when you need fewer - where the extras are basically twiddling their thumbs or contributing marginally to DPS. A smiter could switch roles (and gearsets) dependent on whether a fight is more demanding of DPS or healing.

I've been shadow for all of my raiding (currently 5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK). I know I'll never bring top honors in DPS anymore, though I still come up pretty high on the charts. But in reality the only utility I bring is in the form of VE, VT, & Misery/SW. Fort & Shadow buffs can be provided by any priests. Also, with 2 other shadow priests in our 25-man raids and mana efficiency beginning to grow as gear improves, the remainder of the debuffs could be adequately taken care of by the other 2 shadowpriests. Plus after playing shadow for long enough, we can all just about do it in our sleep now...

I'm not bored with shadow per se - it's still one of the more involved playstyles. But I'm interested in trying something outside the box. We currently run a pretty 'old-school' mix - no ret pallies, no moonkin, etc - and could definitely benefit from some diversity.

I've been holy for fun and build up a pretty good set (~1900 healing, 230mp5) and actually enjoy it a lot, but we're well set for healers. I've been disc/holy for PVP (err... no comment on my skill there) which is fun, but I don't see that spec as being viable for PVE.

So I'm thinking about the smiter. I haven't heard anyone say it's not a fun spec to play, and the utility it brings in PVE (again, utility in the form of a big buff to the dedicated priest healer who had gimped him/herself to provide IDS, along with the ability to mix DPS with healing) might allow me to enjoy both sides of the house in terms of DPS and healing as necessary.

On a side note, paired with a ret pally it could make for a fun synergy in 2v2 (dual DPS team w/ dual off-healers), and I suspect that one spec might serve both PVE and PVP fairly well. And BG's would just be pure fun. (just wish I hadn't invested all these arena points into S3 mooncloth gear).

I sense a change on the horizon. I get a lot of idiots QQ about breaking the priest class and not letting holy dps be an option - but after playing lolsmite (I want to call it Holy SoL tyvm lol) and seeing how fun it is I'm beginning to wonder.

Atm it's really more of a pvp and solo/heal for 5mans kind of build, but with the expansion on the horizon, the possibilities are certainly there.

I'd like to comment on "raid synergy" in regards to this spec if I may. Disc/Holy DPS priests don't offer the mana regen of their shadowy brethern, however, let's look at what they bring to the table in comparison to let's say... mages and rogues. Mages bring a buff and a whoopin' to the raid, and rogue bring nothing but a beating to the raid. True, both have CC - with polymorph being the better - but priests have MC (flattened we are when i breaks early and we get no heals though >< ). Priests of this persuasion also wield the Imp Prayer of Divine Spirit buff (I prefer healers to have 5/5 empowered healing and CoH, dear god how I <3 CoH).

At present I only have access to t4 and kara epics for the build - but it's truly a different kind of priest. And the reason SoL is only 50% on crit? Spam rank 1 holy nova sometime with 2 targets w/ about a 20% crit rating - aside from the global cooldown you can fire out some pretty fast dmg on the crits that spell produces. I acquired the Darkmoon Card: Wrath to that end and I have to say, I <3 it.

Mages have the edge in the fact that they have gems and evocate, but with enough potions a smiting priest can last quite a while lol. I've got 961 bonus dmg unbuffed with ~20% crit chance - if I could improve my gear w/ t5 and ssc/tk gear the dmg and longevity would be far more appreciable I suspect. In any event, it certainly is a blast to play!

So I blew a few badges on a chestpiece and boots, enchanted a spare weapon, and pulled a few pieces from my shadow set to give it a go last night. My talent spec is probably way off, and I'm still coming to terms with rotations/priorities/efficiency techniques, but ran Kara last night with no external mana regen from SP, shaman, etc, and only used wizard oil to give a slight boost.

Mana was definitely tight, but through potting on bosses a few times it wasn't actually that bad. Finished 4th in damage done, but I was delegated as healer for 2 boss fights (brought my heal set with me for that purpose) which is the utility this spec brings. Those that beat me were a fire mage who's geared through Mags, a hunter raiding into SSC/TK, and an arcane mage geared through gruul. If I hadn't been in healing mode throughout a couple of bosses (and spot healing other places), I would've finished 3rd, and not too distantly either (would've easily outpaced the arcane mage).

Grouped with a good shadow priest I can't imagine having any real difficulty with mana at all, and certainly not with judicious use of shadowfiend & pots, which again weren't that big of a deal here (though againn none of the fights are terribly long). A shammy's totem would probably suffice for fights pushing to 10 minutes, or even BoW from a pally (DEFINITELY needed Salv here, and only had 1 pally).

In other words, in a typical 25-man, I don't see the issues for mana. The question becomes, does the raid have sufficient other mana management tools (enough SP's, etc) to allow for this. If so, it allows you to provide another DPS'er in place of a healer when needed, and another healer in place of a DPS'er when needed depending on the fight.

In terms of damage, this is definitely at least comparable to my shadow side. Current gear and spec put me to about 1200 holy damage (couldn't believe it when the holy dps cloak dropped while on the run!) and about 19% holy crit self buffed, before any consumeables. Oh, and this is wearing my T4 healing shoulders (since I couldn't get anything else to fit that slot easily), so would be considerable strengthened if i pick up Fel-Tinged Mantle, etc...

I personally believe this can become a viable 25-man raiding spec because:
- It delivers solid DPS (though not quite as strong as 'classic' roles, as strong as SP)
- It easily hybrids to an effective healer (yes, like druid/shammy/pally)
- It allows holy healing priests in raid to be spec'd for max healing w/ CoH and full Emp Healing
- It offers virtually threat-free AoE damage and healing

In reality, SP were never 'viable' pre-BC for raids but a few proved it wrong. Moonkin, Ret pally specs are not viable in raids now, but that opinion is changing. What's so different here? If placed in a group with a Moonkin in raid (in which case you'd always have a SP anyway for the mana regen) the damage and efficiency of a smite priest scales even further!

Am I changing? I've built a pretty solid shadow toon. My RL would kill me for mentioning the thought of it, no doubt, but if I can assemble some WWS samples (sorry, none to show from last night as I can't seem to get it working since 2.4) I may broach the topic. Also, if this were a permanent decision, I could regem some of the gear more appropriately, as well as switch to the Scryer's blade, contributing even more

Here's a link to current gear / spec (would link armory but will be respec'ing for pvp this afternoon):

http://www.warcrafter.net/sandbox/47917

im going to be really ignorant ive read through a few of peoples arguments than smite spec is good for raiding and i'd like to say...

you fail
your dumb
l2p shadow

An IDS Priest can sit outside the instance, or be someone in the raids alt. Nil point.



Improved VE is ridiculously good. A shadow priest on the same gear level as a Smite Priest would put out higher effective dps (through debuffs/etc) while having consistent group healing.

Another thing is, a Smite Priest is reliant on a Ret Pally in the group. A Ret Paladin is reliant on Windfury totem to DPS. Either you're taking a Melee DPS's spot, or taking the Ret Pally out of a useful group to him.

Also how is it "fun"? You have less to manage, and you see lower crit numbers.



They actually both are quite common now in raids.



Moonkin:
Improved Faerie Fire
Moonkin Aura
Insect Swarm

Ret Paladin:
JoW/JoL up at once.
3% crit
2% Party Damage

Smite Priest:
Nothing. IDS does not count as a raiders alt could be parked outside of an instance for this.



If a Mage or a Destro lock is in that same spot they will do far more DPS, and possibly more utility (ISB uptime).



Though he put it in a really ignorant way, I agree 100%.

Qobble, can you mail me your combatlogs for your previous WWS? It expired already.

Just wanna have a looksee.

I disagree that your argument makes this a nil point, and here's why: he brings abundant conservation of downtime. If you choose to stop the raid every time someone dies and every time the buff is fading to swap out a caster raid member, summon in that alt to rebuff, and switch them back, you are going to lose considerable time spent on the raid and cause considerable aggravation to the raid members while they wait several minutes every time to achieve 'perfect' optimization. To drill into further minute details, this lost time also equates to more frequent group rebuffs, use of elixirs/flasks/foods/oils/poisons/etc. Am I drilling into tiny details to argue a point, yes, but no more so than to manage a summonable toon for a specific rebuff.

Would doing this be the best way to totally optimize the raid's performance in an encounter? Yes, but so would changing makeup for every single encounter you go to, swapping out non-optimal classes for every boss. Oh, and don't forget to portal back to a class trainer for every boss so you can perfectly tweak your talents to best capitalize on each boss. If you are ultimately hardcore you should of course already be doing this, right? We should all aim to achieve that which gives us satisfaction from the game we play.



First, regarding shadow priest debuffs: In the post I indicated I wouldn't see bringing in a smite priest unless there were sufficient shadow priests to cover the mana regen needed. Enough to do that is already providing Misery and Shadoweaving, so this benefit is a moot point.

Next, VE versus smite priest off-healing: Yes, VE provides a ton of healing, but to the shadow priest's party only. The versatility a smite priest brings is in being able to direct those heals wherever he wants. In fights where the raid should not be soaking up damage, this is pure overheal (aside from recovering from SW:D). So is a smite priest's ability to heal worthless? After all, the raid's designated healers are there for a reason and nobody should ever have to supplement that, right? If that's the case, stop the VE b/c it wastes a little (very little) mana and a valuable GCD that could be used towards damage. Smite priests only use mana on this when needed. And if one-too-many healers go down, or is incapacitated, etc, someone is needed to step into that role.



Yes, a smite priest hugely benefts from a ret pally in group, and this is not necessarily optimal for overall raid synergy. A raid focusing on new encounters will restrict class and role allocation to optimize chances of success, and a 'hardcore' raid might restrict it even on farmed content even if it precludes members from coming in a spec where they might have more fun. What if you don't have enough melee shaman to support all of your melee DPS? In that event, someone will not benefit, and in that event putting the ret pally in group with the smite priest suddenly makes sense.



IMO, that's what we're all here for, though we all derive it in different ways. I wouldn't want to bring in a smite priest in all new content where it hurts the chances of success, but would enjoy it where it wouldn't impact that and might provide an interesting change of pace and challenge to farmed content.

How is it "fun"? Wow... Well, let's see... I played it the past couple of days, I liked it a lot, and it was fun. Is it something I would make a permanent switch to? Don't know - a lot of factors come into play, such as enjoyment from the spec (which soloing is a whole lot more enjoyable than what has become autopiolot in shadow spec) versus the potential of lost enjoyment of raiding 25-man if it's something which our raid group is unwilling to consider (I'm fortunate to be in a group that is progressing nicely (2/5 MH atm) and, while firmly progress-oriented, is also not so hardcore as to operate it like a business). Note that 2/5 MH may sound like hogger raids to some of you. So be it. We're ranked 6th in Alliance progression on our realm, where only 1 alliance guild has completed BT, so I feel we're doing fairly well with our methods.

Fun is emotional, not rational.

As to less to manage, it depends on how you play the role. Do frost mages have fun spamming one button? Pally healers have fun spamming 2 buttons? Yes, they do. and I rely on a bit more than that. Crit numbers? If that's your basis of fun, why aren't you playing a mage/destro-lock/moonkin/rogue/insert-your-favorite-crit-class-here?

@Kaex - From what I recall from your posts in the past, you've conquered most of if not likely all of BC content (till Sunwell's release, of course). If your fun comes solely from mastering new content and not in part from enjoying the different playstyles offered from different classes, am I safe in making the assumption that the shadow priest is the only class and spec you have? Also, will you be pausing from the game once you've completed and geared up from Sunwell, only reactivating your account with the launch of WotLK? After all, why would anyone want to play another class to go through the challenge of defeating something you've already defeated? (to be clear, /sarcasm).



Sorry - I didn't phrase that correctly. I should have put quotes (") around 'not viable in raids now.' Actually, your response was the exact point I sought to express. But nobody considered them worthwhile for a long time even though they were because of prejudice against them for lack of viability in the past. Not saying smite priests are necessarily as viable, but if you're having fun and it's not holding back the raid... (again, are you swapping out raid members every 15 minutes or so to min-max for every encounter?).



On smite priests, see above for comment on IDS and loss of raid time.

You left out one:

Shadow Priest:
Nothing, once raid has enough shadow priests to cover needed mana regen. VT doesn't count after this, VE is unnecessary as that's the role of dedicated healers, and Misery/Shadoweaving are already put up quickly and efficiently by just one shadow priest (multiple will stack shadoweaving a few seconds faster but in a long fight more DPS would be achieved by replacing the extras with Warlocks, Mages, etc). So as your raid achieved more T6 loot I'm sure you eliminated the positions of all the extra shadow priests, regardless of how skilled they may be and how hard they've worked to contribute to progress, to make room for higher DPS classes. Did you volunteer to step down?



Allow me to quote my initial post to respond to this...



Again, did you volunteer to give up your raiding spot for a Mage or a Destro lock that "will do far more DPS, and possibly more utility (ISB uptime)"? Or were you the only shadow priest in your raid's entire history...



@thompzy: I have to congratulate you for really nailing one fact with great accuracy in your post. You were really ignorant, and were gracious enough to at least provide the evidence for that one claim in your post. Failing to review the arguments, or to develop and present your own, and following up by reaching and posting a personal decision on the matter as statement of fact fits that description perfectly. People making unsupported statements like "you fail" and "your dumb" don't aid your argument any more than my replying and saying "oh yeah? well you're broccoli" and it certainly doesn't belong in a discussion forum unless unintelligent trolling and flaming is the measure of its success. Go stroke your e-peen elsewhere, tyvm. [Disclaimer: despite my suspicions I have no actual evidence that Thompzy is really a piece of broccoli, but I'm working on it] Oh, and Thompzy - as to "l2p shadow"... Done that, quite successfully by account of all those with whom I've run, thank you.

(please pause for a moment of personal hypocrisy)

@ Thompzy - L2punctuate before telling someone else "your dumb."

(thank you for your indulgence, now returning to constructive post)

@Kaex: Your bumping and promoting a bash post, despite acknowledging its 'ignorant' manner (to which I agree), surprises me - I don't know you, but normally respect (and frequently agree with) your opinions as I've read them in the forums. But your agreement '100%'...

The point of a forum is discussion, and in this case pointing out positives and negatives of a proposition, i.e. a 'logical' argument. I'm not stating my suppositions regarding smite spec as fact, merely voicing ideas around them and creating an argument for them. I know very intricately the strengths and shortcomings of shadow priests,. I fully expect and look forward to arguments back, as the sharing of information between informed individuals is what leads us all to a better understanding of a topic.

If theory crafters sharpened their electronic pencis enough, I'm sure that for every encounter there is a 'perfect' group make-up and spec for each member, and perfect gear that should be adorned, with specific enchants required on each of these gears. But none of us are taking it to the ultimate extreme of making those modifications every step of the way every time, and that leads to the conclusion that we accept balances and make allowances to some degree. The question at hand is whether that threshold is reachable for a well-geared and skilled smite priest. There are examples of guilds that do include them through T6 content (do a google, it's how I found them - after this wall of text I'm too tired to do the extra research again for you). Perhaps their raids were so strong and experienced they could clear all encounters with only 24 members so it didn't matter. Or perhaps they found a way that a smite priest, being the spec a valued member wanted to play, could fit in the group in such a way to contribute enough to earn his spot in the fun.

Kaex, you brought many points to bear against the viability of a smite priest in raid, and I acknowledge that there are shortcomings, as there are with any class. I have brought forward counterpoints that I believe are legitimate given certain situations, as all raid makeups have differences. I welcome continued reasoned arguments against them or for them that do not ignore the similar deficits in other classes / specs in sole efforts of denouncing one spec.

I am not definitively stating smite spec is a 'preferred' spec in later content. To reiterate my original post, let me be clear: I am suggesting viability, meaning that a smite priest can contribute value through end-game.

Intelligent opinions with logical, specific, and bias-free arguments for or against would be welcome. Posts that can be summed up as "Smite are dumb" with no supportive or backing argument please STFU.

Smite are dumb.

(This reply was bound to come sooner or later, so thought I'd save y'all the trouble)

i think a lot of people dont really punctuate on the net? who gives a fuck, you understood me?

anyway why are you making a HUGE debate about smite being viable in raids when its not, i dont need to write loads of shit to say it isnt because quite frankly, i would rather take any other hybrid class to do more dps than you, and any healing class to do more healing than you (in that shit spec your going on about)

no one with a brain wants to take a 50/50 dps/heal spec in raid when its better to take a full dps class and a full healing class, your just fucking stupid to try and get this point across to people, deal with the fact you tried to make smite spec look good, but you failed.

edit: i decided i would do something constructive...

my thoughts on smite spec...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tF4JTd61xco

OK I'm going to put this very bluntly.

1600 dps shadowpriest.
vs
1600 dps smite priest. **Assuming this figure is actually possible**

Shadow priest brings: Misery, Weaving, 1875mp5 through VT and 9375h/5 through VE.
Assuming there are 5 people per group and assuming none of them are using pets.

Smite priest brings: DPS. Offhealing (assuming he needs to stop dps).

My guild has an alt sitting outside the instance to buff DS so its a non factor, and even if you couldn't handle that in your guild....another shaman, another mage, another warlock, another shadowpriest, another boomkin, another ret pally or even another BM hunter. Would bring much more to the raid then a smite priest.

For a smite priest to be viable you need to do the dps of a rogue/mage. Because you don't bring enough buffs to make you viable as a raid buffer/halfassed dps.

EDIT** I can see that perhaps one day down the track smite may evolve to be our highest dps spec that sacrifices buffs for single target dps. But right now specing smite you sacrifice your raid viability AND your personal dps.

Ok, here goes again, though it looks like repeating this again and again isn't getting my point across... Let's try this:

VIABLE MEANS WORKABLE, NOT PREFERABLE

My point is not to say that a smite priest can be preferable to a shadow priest, but that it can be workable / manageable / achievable. At the same point, from everything I've read (yes, I'm an unfortunate lost soul who hasn't cleared MH/BT) the need for the mana regen from shadow priests diminishes as the raid gears up, making them substantially less valuable than a pure high DPS class such as a rogue. Yet most raids that I've heard of and I suspect most that those reading this post are in still carry at least 2, and probably did not kick those quality players to the curb as they moved further in even though they could substantially increase raid DPS by doing so.

My guild still fights over who gets shadowpriests, our warlocks want them. Our healers want them. Our mages want them. Heck our hunters.

No we are not as needed as before, but we are still a vital part of a raid.

You should read my post again. Yes perhaps sometime down the track a smite priest may become viable. but right now they are not.

You can not twist the word viable to mean whatever you want it to mean. The word viable means that you hold your own in a raid group.

Which right now a smite priest does not.

Actually, we generally switch out players quite frequently for each boss. For example we bring 3 Shadow Priests to Kalecgos and Felmyst due to Improved VE being amazing for those two fights. We only bring two to Brutallus. So yes, guilds will optimize the group per boss if they are min/maxing.

It's not hard for the 5 groups to the the IDS buff before each boss attempt either. It takes roughly 1-2 minutes max, which is not a problem. IDS is a poor excuse for raid viability to be honest and if it's all that Smite Priests can claim, then that's why it's being laughed at.



On Felmyst (I'll use him for example since Shadow Priests shine here) everyone takes 1,000 damage per tick of the debuff. A Shadow Priest can basically keep his group completely topped off. Also a Shadow Priest uses 1 GBCD every minute to do this healing, a Smite Priest needs to do a lot more to get close to what a Shadow Priest can do.



If a Smite Priest provides little to no raid support and doesn't put out his optimum damage, what's the point of bringing it over ANY other class? I would love to see what a completely geared out Smite Priest could do without a Ret pally. 1500 DPS?



I could care less about Crit numbers to be honest, sure it's nice to see a 5k crit once in a while, but I brought it up because a lot of Smite Priests bring up that it's fun because you see big crits, which is not the case.



I actually enjoy every aspect of this game. I consider myself as much a "casual" player as I do a "hardcore" player. I enjoy PvP, leveling new classes, and just wandering around enjoying the scenery sometimes.

I've played a Paladin to 65 (used to raid Naxx) where I was Holy. I dabbled in Ret and prot slightly and even tanked a bit in MC for fun.

I've played two Priests, Kaex and Keanex. Keanex has been Shadow almost exclusively except a brief Holy stint at 70. Kaex has been Smite Spec (multiple versions), Shadow, Discipline, CoH, and Imp DS/Holy.

I've also played a Hunter to 65.

I enjoy playing new playstyles, but it irks me when people make posts about Smite being viable in a raid setting, when there's really no logical reason to bring one over any other caster. Sure, if you have fun with it go ahead, but don't confuse people into thinking it's going to be accepted in a raid when it just isn't. Now I'm not saying you are particularly doing that, but many Smite Priests are.



Nope, I've never canceled my account. As much as I love progressing, I love off nights to farm some honor, level alts, or do stupid stuff in-game. This is assuming I'm not going out that night =P



The thing is Hybrids like Moonkins have always provided some sort of Raid Support, but they only recently became "accepted" when people realized they can put out respectable DPS (1800+ on Brut) while providing raid support.

If they were to give Smite Priests something like "10% Chance on Crit to increase party Spell Damage by 5% for 5 seconds" they would more than likely see a raid spot, keep in mind that was something I just thought of randomly off the top of my head. The thing is though, Priests already have a raid viable caster spec, what makes anyone think they'd ever make Smite viable?



This is why we only bring two on fights like Brutallus. We are only needed for Mana in the caster groups. I gladly step down if need be for a Lock or a Mage if I'm not needed.



There are actually four Shadow Priests in my guild and I'm relatively new. So yes, I do sit occasionally, when needed to.



The thing is, as ignorant as he put it, I really do agree with him. I really see no room in a 25 man raid for a Smite Priest. Every other caster could either:
-Out DPS
-Our Support
the Smite Priest.



Now when you say contribute endgame, do you mean on progression? If you mean farmed content, then that's kind of a nil point because alts can be brought to farmed content.